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About

In this season 4 premiere of the Resilient Pastor podcast, hosts Glenn Packiam, Rich Villodas, and Sharon Miller kick off the new season by exploring the complex and often misunderstood topic of narcissism in the church. Joined by expert guest Chuck DeGroote—professor, licensed therapist, spiritual director, and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church—they discuss how unhealed trauma and wounds can lead to narcissistic tendencies in leadership. Rather than an exposé or attack on pastors, this episode offers compassionate, theologically grounded insight into the narcissism spectrum, the importance of personal healing, and how leaders can pursue healthy, collaborative, and confident pastoral leadership without fear of being labeled toxic.

Perfect for church leaders navigating the pressures of ministry, this conversation blends personal vulnerability, practical wisdom, and hope for renewal.

Key Takeaways

• Narcissism exists on a spectrum—most pastors show some traits without having Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
• Unhealed trauma and wounds often fuel self-protection that can manifest as narcissistic behaviors in leadership.
• Clarity and decisiveness are not the same as control; healthy leadership requires both vision and collaboration.
• Self-examination, vulnerability, and healing are essential for pastors to avoid sliding down the narcissism spectrum.
• Many pastors live in fear of being called narcissistic or toxic, which can lead to hesitant leadership and unhealthy spirals.
• Stress becomes trauma when suffered in isolation—processing pain with safe people is vital for resilience.
• Confidence, inspiring leadership, and winsomeness are not narcissism; pastors should lead boldly while staying humble and curious.

Highlights

• “I remember thinking in the middle of it, I need to repent. It was Holy Spirit conviction—like good medicine.” — Sharon Miller
• “Sin is to be curved in on oneself. Narcissism is that theological reality lived out.” — Rich Villodas
• “The more self-protected you become, the more armored you become, the more apt you are to live in ways that show up as narcissistic characteristics.” — Chuck DeGroote
• “Trauma festers when we suffer alone. Stress becomes trauma when we suffer in isolation.” — Chuck DeGroote
• “Bad leadership for a season is not the same as narcissistic or abusive leadership.” — Chuck DeGroote
• “Confidence is not narcissism. Winsomeness and inspiring leadership from a stage is not narcissism.” — Chuck DeGroote
• “Jesus doesn’t just assess us based on our worst behavior, but sees through to the pain that needs healing.” — Sharon Miller

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